So...who is most dangerous? Well, the guy who is about to kill your buddy may be because then the odds get worse for you...BUT...the guy in the spit dropping down on YOU will kill you before odds get bad enough to make a difference. This just means that fighting in a furball requires snap judgements and looking around a lot. I'd say that in a multi-plane fight...about 1/2 my time is spent looking at the guy I'm tracking, the other 1/2 looking out my rear view for guys dropping in on me.

From Redcoat: ok i think this applies....when you are tracking your target, u say u spend half your time looking at him and half out the back, the other half looking at the target, is regardless of the view and your position?

From Shaky: About that...unless I'm actually firing or in final line up of shot once the guy is in my forward view ALL the time, I'm 90% on him with an occasional flick to back/back up views. Once the enemy is in a postion to die...KILL HIM...then roll out immediately

From Redcoat: so u never look out the front while your target is in another view?>

From Shaky: Very rarely, Red...I'm looking at him or out the back/back-up views. Reason for roll out is that you ALWAYS assume someone's long up on ya when yer in a stallfighter

From Tsheehy: when appropriate Shaky (dont know what agenda is) could you go over some defensive maneuvers? like what to do when you are low and slow in a turning fight and somebody does swoop down on you?

From Shaky: So...yer at 1000 ft and someone's diving in on ya, eh? well...your in a bad position right off...and he is in a much better one so you want to concentrate on keeping your Energy <E> and making him blow his... equivalent E states are much the same...get him to blow his. Key to this is THINK VERTICAL!

From Shaky: NEVER turn in a flat plane when someone is dropping on your six...ANY flat plane. By any flat plane I mean straight up/down as well.

From Tsheehy: how do you get him to think he must turn harder, etc..?

From Shaky: try slicebacks, pitchups, rolling split-s's,barrell rolls...

From Tsheehy: do you mean flat plane to include oblique turns?

From Shaky: anything that makes him dump speed to stay with you or give up the shot... Oblique turns ore better than flat breaks or immels/split-s's, BUT constantly varying the angle of your break will make his solution tougher. When you are slow...many of your breaks will be downward. Try rollin over about 135 dg <almost on back> then pulling through adjusting your angle to come thru the bottom at less than 200 ft off ground there is NO way a faster enemy can follow you through this. as he breaks off, go ahead and zoom a bit to get altitude back but as SOON as he turns toward you...get ready to break again. Keep you speed over 150 and you'll live.

From Tsheehy: how do you decide how hard to pull and when? if you don't pull hard you will die, if you pull too hard, you lose too much E

From Shaky: how hard to pull?...well...WATCH the enema. If you see him out your rear view moving towards the outside of your turn, then you are beating him and don't have to pull harder if he is NOT moving relative to you, then you are not beating him. If he is moving to the inside of your turn...he is beating YOU and ya better do something else, quick! Now...how to judge HIS E state while this is going on?...simple…look at his VERICAL movement while turning. If <assuming he is matching your turn rate> he is going UP while doing this his E state is probably higher than yours...he is going a bit vertical <like a hi yo-yo> to keep tracking you... if he is staying level with you, your E states are probably the and its now a straight maneuvering contest. If he is BEATING you while staying level...he may be slower than you...hence lower E.

From Thrustmaster: You said if he was "Beating" you while staying level. Do you mean Turning Inside you? If so, wouldn't that depend on the optimum turn rate of the plane

From Shaky: It does, Chum, at speed below corner velocity... in any case...whether he is beating your turn rate because he is in a Spit vs your or because he's in a Yak and has slowed down so much...the solution is the same... either way, we're assuming your in his guns range, and have to do something about it, so lets talk about AOT,or "Angle Off Tail". When on defensive, you want to give your enemy as bad a shot as possible... that means a high AOT.

From Thrustmaster: So then Cornering (below corner velocity <G>) can be considered a factor of E?

From Shaky: not all that sure what ya mean, chum...but, in general if BOTH planes are below cornering velocity, the better turning plane wins although, the slower plane may still turn better. The difference from cornering velocity <Vc> and stall speed is not great to cause speed to be a major factor. By this I mean that once you drop below Vc, your perilously close to stall speed and as you try to get so much slower that a Yak can get around on a Spit...you are in danger of stalling and spinning and cannot go vertical up at all. Is it done? Sure....but... if the Yak don't get the shot off quick, he will stall and spin out giving a free shot to the Spit

From Shaky: That brings up another point...how many of ya fly the Spit and get beat by the Yak?

From Redcoat: regarding the rear views, which i find very decieving, when in a tight turning fite which is better to have, the enema in the mirror or the enema in up and back?

From Shaky: Best place to have an enema is in front view : but...since he is behind ya...no WAY ya want to leave him in your mirror. That means he is on your dead 6 o'clock, and you'll see a red screen real soon

From Redcoat: but if he is up and back in tight turn, doesn't that mean he has his nose up on you?

From Shaky: Yes...but if he is on your six in a tight turn, all he has to do is relax the stick and he has a nice 4 second track on you...BOOM

From Shaky: lets get back to AOT <angle off tail> with that question. Basically...a enemy RIGHT on your six has an angle of 0 dg AOT, one RIGHT on your nose is 180 dg. You want the AOT to be as high as possible when you are defensive. If he is on your six <0 dg>...get him OFF. Roll and pull...make him roll and pull...get him steady into your up/back view...work him into up, then up/front, to front. Never let him sit on your six. So...how do we do that? Well, let's take a look at 2 specific. In both cases, E states <alt and speed> are roughly equal between planes. The first...you are in a better turning plane. Well...if he ain't shooting you...he's dead and just don't know it yet... set up a constant turn where you keep generating more AOT...a steady turn should do this since you are in the better turning plane...you should eventually get around on him. This turn can be at any angle...from a flat turn to "loop warrior". Keep and eye on him to make sure the AOT doesn't start to decrease again; if it does...it probably means that he just slowed down to improve his turn rate so now you want to take advantage of him slowing...start to use vertical maneuvers...pull up on your turns...make him bleed more energy. Eventually he won't be able to go up with you and will fall off. This is how the Spit, in particular, should be fought. The second circumstance....HE is in the better turning plane... now you want to make him work... now HE is in the Spit <for example>...your in a 109 or Yak or something. In a steady turn, he can out-turn you, so No steady turns in this case. Make him work...use vertical up and down <swithcbacks and pitchbacks> as much as possible...keep your plane rolling...use random direction and roll shifts keep him from getting a track on you. Do this enough and he may start to fall behind, getting more and more off your tail. If you generate a 90 dg AOT or more through these maneuvers, try a pitchback <if fast enough> or switchback <if slow> to get a high angle shot on him. Nothing like gettin pinged to throw off your concentration even more <g>. Now, in this type of fight...with him behind and in a better turning plane, given equal pilots, you WILL lose, there is really no other way around it. A pilot of equal skill will manage to stay with you through all your crazy maneuvers but doing this low ya may auger him first <g>. Secret here is not to get in this position by keeping an eye on what's happening around you. To do this, you really must develop a good "scan", keeping an eye on danger spots by the time you see someone 100 yds off your six, your already in serious trouble. Most aces in this game have flying skill not much better than most others. They have an awareness of what's going on around them that lets them react better, though. This is called "Situational Awareness" and will be touched on more in a later class being taught by someone else <g> but the key is to have an idea of what the other planes around you can do to screw up your flight...For example, back to the multi plane situation. Your coming into a fight in a Spit, the fight is eroughly Co-E to you... in that fight you have for enemies 1 guy in a FW lurking 10k over yr head, A couple of 109s, Yaks or Spits 2k over you in the turning fight a stallfighter engaged with a fellow countryman at you altitude, a stallfighter 3k lower then you just finishing someone off... who is the most dangerous to you here? Who do you kill first? This is not rhetorical <g>

From Thrustmaster: I would probably go for the guy 3k down. 2 guys at Co Alt are busy, guy at 10k needs some time to get down, guy at 3k just finished fight, probably low E.

From Redcoat: i say you get the guy at co-alt, because you'll free your countryman and better the odds, and if you dive on the lower one, he may not have low energy and you'll be 5000 instead of 2000 below the other enemas.

From Hotrail: I worry about High FWs

From Maker: I agree with Redcoat. Freeing yer buddy will help u defend or offend<g> against the other baddies, If he dies yer in doodoo <done>

From Shaky: hehe...spoken like a true Blander <g>. Well...I'd have to say yre all partially right the low Stallfighter is probably easy meat...but...after ya kill him...yer easy meat now <g> Worrying about the high FW is right...he is the most dangerous to cause he can kill you fastest, but ya can't kill him...so just worry about staying outta his way. That leaves the ones 3k above ya and the one on yer buddy. Either of these is a decent choice. The one on yer buddy may be already hurting, so one pass from you may finish him off but remember...the other stallfighters are in perfect postion to wax yer butt if you get into a long fight with the one on yer buddy...so it looks like a compromise is in order. Try making a pass on the one on yer buddy, then look for the FW and the 2 that are 3k up. Chances are, the FW is on his way down, and the others are maneuvering for a shot on you. Probably off your wing-tip by now <does this sound familiar to anyone?> Ping that guy on yer buddy,,,screw his concentration...then worry seriously about things in this order... avoiding the FW... turn INTO the guys in stallfighters 3k up… take a look at the low guy making sure he is still outta the fight… scream for help like a woman! yer 5 on 2 here...no time to be quiet <g>. After that intial pass, if someone get on your six...drag him in front of yer buddy and WATCH him too...he's probably trying to do the same thing. Both yer buddy and the enema...most important thing... is NEVER fly straight..always be maneuvering

From Thrustmaster: quick one. You said turn Into oncoming nme. I assume to give low % head-on. Are Head Ons worth the bullets? Or should i save Ammo.

From Shaky: I'd say save the ammo...ya aint fgonna kill 5 bad guys with headons. Think of this.... while he is trying to line up for the head-on, you could be pulling a lead turn on him...presto, you've already got an angles advantage. Headons in a stallfight are stupid because they invariably waste the oppotuninty for you to start working onto his and they suck as a percentage shot. Anytime you see someone trying for headon's in a stallfight you should know you've got the fight 1/2 won already always concentrate on YOU getting right on HIS six: remember the AOT as we talked about it on defensive? It's the opposite if your on the offensive...you WANT to be right on his six...0 dg AOT. That is always the shot you should be working for...none other. Reason for this is twofold 1) close in shots from dead 6 give a SUBSTANTIAL lethality bonus...3X I think 2) and if your on his six, his guns aint pointed at YOU.

From Hotrail: u said earlier that when you have someone chasin ya to try pitchbacks I see this as an easy way to get your butt killed..as it has happened to me a hundred times in the past. u really want to go vertical with someone on your six?

From Shaky: Ummm...never STRAIGHT vertical...yer right...ugly death. Roll about 45-60 deg, then pull....rhen keep rolling, never straight up..NEVER

From Hotrail: and the guy will follow u wont he?

From Shaky: he prolly will...thats why, as you pull into the pitchback. You keep the roll going, reverse yer roll, pull into a switchback, whatever it takes...you are trying to "shake" him here by varying your maneuvers as much as possible

From Shaky: if you have the speed, a 45 dg pitchback, continuing into a barrel roll or split S will certainly generate a higher AOT

From Hotrail: Im usually dead before I can pitchback tho:)

From Shaky: Nore that this is when you a re in a WORSE turning plane, co-E and he is behind you...odds are yer gonna take a hit... doesn't mean ya don't have to make him work for it...try to get him to pancake or spin out...black out...with you crossing his nose every 5 seconds...he's gonna be nuts trying to get a god shot... think about what its like when YOU are chasing someone who you JUST can't seem to get a shot on/. make him feel the same way...think about it...how many times did you spin or black out chasing him? <g> I've done it too many time too...hehe

From Robinhood: Everytime I start gaining angles on some fiters I see them spin turn and kill all I worked for.

From Shaky: Well...if ya play it right...he spins=he dies... DON'T try to follow him through the spin. Immediately, as you see him spin...take a snap shot if ya can... then GO VERTICAL get on top of his butt...when he stops spinning...pull over and drop right on him... remember this.. if he spins...he is VERY slow... once he comes out...he MUST hold that sucker steady for a second or he gonna... go round-de-round again THATS your chance. If you pull vertical, or, barring that, break off and come right back around you should have an excellent shot opportunity....key is to be OVER him as he pulls out of the spin... that way...you can drop on his six no matter which way he comes out.

From Shaky: vertical doesn't only mean UP if yer fast <over 150> think UP...high yo-yo-s, pitch ups/backs if yer slow, think low yo yos, split-s's, switchbacks.. key is, USE the vertical plane to cut the corners. if he turns flat, and you go "out of plane", you WILL gain angle on him, no matter what your relative speeds if you leave here thinking NOTHING but "THINK VERTICAL", you will see an improvement...unless ya did it already

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